Status: Age: 111 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
A modification to the final paragraph above:
Again, the context for 'ilah' is given in the Quran itself. 21:25 ('There is no ilah but I) makes it clear that there is One Ilah, no matter what the disbelievers say, and that should be enough for us. But fortunately we have an example:
In 5:73, the disbelievers are saying "Allah is third of three". Does that mean there exist more than one Allah? Or that there can be two references to Allah -- 'Allah who is One Ilah' and 'Allah who is third of three'?
Posted:
Sat 20 Feb, 2010 8:06 pm
The Rook
Status: Age: 111 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
At the moment I do believe Allah to be 'AlIlah/The Ilah'.
So Ilah, 'One Ilah' and 'The Ilah' have the same connotation -- God, One God, The God.
Now you don't think Allah is 'The Ilah,' what then do you propose Allah means? Does it mean anything?
Posted:
Sat 20 Feb, 2010 8:12 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
The wrote:
At the moment I do believe Allah to be 'AlIlah/The Ilah'.
So Ilah, 'One Ilah' and 'The Ilah' have the same connotation -- God, One God, The God.
Now you don't think Allah is 'The Ilah,' what then do you propose Allah means? Does it mean anything?
Yes Allah is not the composition of Al and Ilah
Allah means Allah
The arabic name Allah should be translated to Allah
i.e. you cannot translate a name
Now if you think that Allah is the composition of Al + Ilah, then tell me what happened to to the first letter Alif in the word Ilah, why it was omitted after adding the Al to it? _________________ http://free-islam.com
Posted:
Sat 20 Feb, 2010 9:01 pm
The Rook
Status: Age: 111 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
Forget translating a name, names can mean something. We don't translated Muhammad into English, but Muhammad means 'one who is praised' or 'praiseworthy'. Likewise, does Allah have any meaning?
Posted:
Sat 20 Feb, 2010 9:29 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
The wrote:
Forget translating a name, names can mean something. We don't translated Muhammad into English, but Muhammad means 'one who is praised' or 'praiseworthy'. Likewise, does Allah have any meaning?
Exactly. Names cannot be translated
They say that Allah has a meaning which is The God
Status: Age: 111 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
I agree that somebody named 'Muhammad' in Arabic should be referred to as 'Muhammad' in any other language. But Muhammad does mean something in Arabic.
If you take Allah as God's Name in Arabic (though Allah Alone can 'name' Himself) and then propose that it should not be translated in English or other languages then I think it's worth considering. However, I do feel 'Allah' should imply or mean something at least in Arabic, even if that meaning cannot be conveyed sufficiently in any another language.
Posted:
Sun 21 Feb, 2010 4:38 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
The wrote:
I agree that somebody named 'Muhammad' in Arabic should be referred to as 'Muhammad' in any other language. But Muhammad does mean something in Arabic.
It does not matter what it means, because we are not referring to what it means rather to the name of such entity
for example, someone may be named Halim, which means forbearing, but he might be one of the most vicious criminals in the world, therefore the meaning of the name should not really imply that such entity adheres to the meaning
The same is true when to assign names to cities, like Paris for example
The wrote:
If you take Allah as God's Name in Arabic (though Allah Alone can 'name' Himself)
Yes He alone can name Himself and He did with the name Allah.
The wrote:
and then propose that it should not be translated in English or other languages then I think it's worth considering.
Cool
The wrote:
However, I do feel 'Allah' should imply or mean something at least in Arabic, even if that meaning cannot be conveyed sufficiently in any another language.
Well, if I mention Allah then I mentioned the name of the The only God
i.e. I mentioned the name of the Ilah Wahid
But Allah does not mean Al-Ilah, rather it is the name of Al-Ilah
Status: Age: 111 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
@ Well, if I mention Allah then I mentioned the name of the The only God
i.e. I mentioned the name of the Ilah Wahid
What you said above gives the impression that there are 'ilahs' other than 'Ilah Wahid'. But Allah Himself is very clear about the matter and says 'There is no Ilah except I". As such both Ilah and Ilah Wahid can only refer to the same Being.
What we have seen from the Quran so far is this:
That disbelievers do misuse the term 'ilah,' but the fact is that there are no multiple ilahs; there is only one Ilah.
Even the term 'Allah' is misused. Some say Allah has son or daughters or that He is "third of three". Of course, this does not mean that there are multiple Allahs; it is just that the disbelievers misuse the term.
In effect, we have established that in the true context (and not the disbelievers'), Ilah, One Ilah and Allah refer to the same One Being.
Let me now move to the verses that I talked about earlier. I start with 43:84:
And it is He who in heaven is Ilah and in earth is Ilah; He is the All-wise, the All-knowing.
If we understand Ilah as God, what the verse is saying is that "He is God in the heavens and in the earth."
My next verse is 6:3:
He is Allah in the heavens and the earth; He knows your secrets, and what you publish, and He knows what you are earning.
If we say Allah does not mean "The Ilah," or that it has no meaning and is only a label, then the verse merely explains that "He is Allah in the heavens and in the earth," which is obscure and explains nothing.
On the other hand, if we understand Allah as 'The Ilah/God,' then we get the following understanding: "He is the God in the heavens and in the earth". This is exactly what 43:84 says, and fits in with the context of both the verse perfectly.
In effect, Allah as merely a label does not give a context to 6:3, while Allah as 'The God' gives it a direction and a context that is reinforced by 43:84.
Posted:
Sun 21 Feb, 2010 1:17 pm
The Rook
Status: Age: 111 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
I will not be around (at least won't be able to log in) for the next few days. I will reply to any post (and give an example to clarify my take on 6:3, if needed) when I log back in. Take care.
Posted:
Sun 21 Feb, 2010 3:15 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
The wrote:
@ Well, if I mention Allah then I mentioned the name of the The only God
i.e. I mentioned the name of the Ilah Wahid
The wrote:
What you said above gives the impression that there are 'ilahs' other than 'Ilah Wahid'.
How this can possibly understood if I already said: I mentioned the name of the Ilah Wahid, i.e. the ONLY God?
The wrote:
But Allah Himself is very clear about the matter and says 'There is no Ilah except I". As such both Ilah and Ilah Wahid can only refer to the same Being.
But Ilah cannot be the same as Ilah Wahid, how can two words equal one word? Impossible
Ilah means god
Ilah Wahid means: God alone, or One God
The wrote:
What we have seen from the Quran so far is this:
That disbelievers do misuse the term 'ilah,' but the fact is that there are no multiple ilahs; there is only one Ilah.
I am really not concern what the disbelievers and even the believers say, what I am talking about is only a linguistic issue, it has nothing to do with what the people say
The wrote:
Even the term 'Allah' is misused. Some say Allah has son or daughters or that He is "third of three". Of course, this does not mean that there are multiple Allahs; it is just that the disbelievers misuse the term.
That is not a misuse, rather associating partners with Allah
The wrote:
In effect, we have established that in the true context (and not the disbelievers'), Ilah, One Ilah and Allah refer to the same One Being.
I am fine with that, but again, linguistically, Allah cannot be the composition of the device Al and the word Ilah
The wrote:
Let me now move to the verses that I talked about earlier. I start with 43:84:
And it is He who in heaven is Ilah and in earth is Ilah; He is the All-wise, the All-knowing.
If we understand Ilah as God, what the verse is saying is that "He is God in the heavens and in the earth."
That is right
The wrote:
My next verse is 6:3:
He is Allah in the heavens and the earth; He knows your secrets, and what you publish, and He knows what you are earning.
The wrote:
If we say Allah does not mean "The Ilah,"
But we already have an Arabic word for The Ilah, which is Al-Ilah, so why you want the name Allah to mean the same?
The wrote:
or that it has no meaning and is only a label,
Yes it is a name of His and only Him knows what it means
DO you know the meaning of the Name Lut?
How about the meaning of the name Firon?
Or Ismael?
Do we really need to know what these names mean?
The wrote:
then the verse merely explains that "He is Allah in the heavens and in the earth," which is obscure and explains nothing.
That is right the verse is telling us that His name is Allah, and it does not make sense that people read one verse from the Quran and that's about it, when they read the whole Quran, they should understand that Allah is the unique name of the One God
The wrote:
On the other hand, if we understand Allah as 'The Ilah/God,'
Again, we already have a clear Arabic word to mean The God, which is Al-Ilah, so my question remains intact, why you want to mix the name of the Allah with the clear Arabic word Al-Ilah which means The God?
The wrote:
then we get the following understanding: "He is the God in the heavens and in the earth". This is exactly what 43:84 says, and fits in with the context of both the verse perfectly.
But we already have verses that said so using the word to mean God which is Ilah
The wrote:
In effect, Allah as merely a label does not give a context to 6:3,
so all other verses where Lut, Ismael and Foron names are menioned, have no context to you?
The wrote:
while Allah as 'The God' gives it a direction and a context that is reinforced by 43:84.
Again, we already have a clear Arabic word to mean the God which is Al-Ilah
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
The wrote:
I will not be around (at least won't be able to log in) for the next few days. I will reply to any post (and give an example to clarify my take on 6:3, if needed) when I log back in. Take care.
Status: Age: 111 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
Looks like the trip got delayed, so I will stick around some more.
@ But Ilah cannot be the same as Ilah Wahid, how can two words equal one word? Impossible
Ilah means god
Ilah Wahid means: God alone, or One God
Read correctly, buddy. I said Ilah and Ilah Wahid refer to the same being, not that they are one word.
If you think that Ilah is somebody other than Allah, then you contradict the Quran when God says, "There is no Ilah but I".
@I am really not concern what the disbelievers and even the believers say, what I am talking about is only a linguistic issue, it has nothing to do with what the people say
I am not concerned with what you say, rather with what the Quran says. The Quran tells us that Only Allah is Ilah, and it gets settled there. If you believe that there is an Ilah other than Allah, then find a verse for it.
@That is not a misuse, rather associating partners with Allah
"Allah is third of three" is plain English. Unless you also believe "Allah is third of three," then these are two different usage of Allah.
@ so all other verses where Lut, Ismael and Foron names are menioned, have no context to you?
I was expecting this argument where you would compare Allah with human names.
Consider this scenario: A man named Ismael, who is the king of certain country.
Now if he says "I am Ismael of this country" it doesn't make sense. On the other hand, if he says "I am King of this country" it does make sense.
Let us go a step further and say that his name is Malik rather than Ismael. Again, if he says "I am Malik of this country," where Malik means King, then it makes sense. But if Malik does not mean King, and is a meaningless name or label, then "I am Malik of this country" is an equally meaningless sentence. The same goes when you say Allah is a Name or label with no meaning and apply it to 6:3.
You had said that your "strongest argument" is that AlIlah can refer to a man-made "god". But only the disbelievers believe that there exists Ilah other than Allah. In essence, rather than following the erroneous concept of the disbelievers that there is an Ilah other than Allah and split hairs over it, we should listen to what the Quran says. I believe the Quran takes precedence, but you are trying to make an appeal to chirography, so we will look into that.
Whether Allah is a "combination" of Al and Ilah or not is the case you want to argue. Go ahead and talk about it, buddy.
Posted:
Sun 21 Feb, 2010 5:25 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
The wrote:
Looks like the trip got delayed, so I will stick around some more.
Ok
The wrote:
@ But Ilah cannot be the same as Ilah Wahid, how can two words equal one word? Impossible
Ilah means god
Ilah Wahid means: God alone, or One God
Read correctly, buddy. I said Ilah and Ilah Wahid refer to the same being, not that they are one word.
Then again we are talking about two different things
Are you aware that I am talking from the ARABIC linguistic point of view?
It seems you are totally ignoring this fact
Let me corner you then
Refute this as extracted from the Quran
The Quran used the generic Arabic word to mean god which is Ilah, by referring to Allah and any other man made gods as well
How come then the word Allah mean Ilah? I am talking Arabic words (not English)
If you are going to repeat the same ignorance that Allah (Arabic word) is the compositions of the two Arabic words (Al + Ilah), then I am asking you what happened to the first Alif in the word Ilah? Why it is omitted?
And the most important question, If when we add the Al to Ilah, to make the word Allah, then this must mean that the word Al-Ilah cannot be a valid Arabic word, while the matter of the fact remains intact that Al-Ilah is a proper Arabic word to mean a generic god also. HOW COME?
PLEASE ANSWER THESE QUESTION INSTEAD OF WASTING OUR TIME WITH SOME UNFOUNDED CRAP THAT IS ONLY PARROTTED BY THE NON ARABIC SPEAKERS
The wrote:
If you think that Ilah is somebody other than Allah, then you contradict the Quran when God says, "There is no Ilah but I".
What the hell is that bro?
Look, it is not my problem that you TOTALLY misunderstand what I am talking about
I AM TALKING LINGUISTICALLY, therefore if you do not know Arabic, you should not debate me in such subject, you might however ask some friends of your who know Arabic and come back with their answers.
The wrote:
@I am really not concern what the disbelievers and even the believers say, what I am talking about is only a linguistic issue, it has nothing to do with what the people say
I am not concerned with what you say,
Why you are debating me in the subject then?
To prove me wrong? Fine with me, I welcome to be proven wrong, but to do so you need to answer the linguistic questions above, and when proven wrong, I will thank you too, here are the questions again:
The Quran used the generic Arabic word to mean god which is Ilah, by referring to Allah and any other man made gods as well
How come then the word Allah mean Ilah? I am talking Arabic words (not English)
If you are going to repeat the same ignorance that Allah (Arabic word) is the compositions of the two Arabic words (Al + Ilah), then I am asking you what happened to the first Alif in the word Ilah? Why it is omitted?
And the most important question, If when we add the Al to Ilah, to make the word Allah, then this must mean that the word Al-Ilah cannot be a valid Arabic word, while the matter of the fact remains intact that Al-Ilah is a proper Arabic word to mean a generic god also. HOW COME?
Please answer of find one to answer the above questions.
The wrote:
rather with what the Quran says.
And that is what I am talking about, the Quran used the generic word ILAH which mean God, being the one ad only God or another man made god it makes no difference, that is just a context, I AM BLOODY TALKING LINGUISTICALLY
Now why you want the name of Only God which is Allah to mean linguistically god?
Please answer the damn question
The wrote:
The Quran tells us that Only Allah is Ilah,
And I agreed with that, but that is A CONTEXT
The Arabic words Allah and Ilah cannot be the same linguistically, or do you think that are the same linguistically?
The wrote:
and it gets settled there. If you believe that there is an Ilah other than Allah, then find a verse for it.
What the hell are you talking about?
What is settled that you misunderstood what I am talking about, I AM BLOODY TALKING ARABIC WORDS not what the context say, please wake up.
Your stupid question above is dismissed
The wrote:
@That is not a misuse, rather associating partners with Allah
"Allah is third of three" is plain English. Unless you also believe "Allah is third of three," then these are two different usage of Allah.
Dismissed
The wrote:
@ so all other verses where Lut, Ismael and Foron names are menioned, have no context to you?
I was expecting this argument where you would compare Allah with human names.
Good for you, now explain it linguistically, not bloody emotionally or by some wishful thinking
The wrote:
Consider this scenario: A man named Ismael, who is the king of certain country.
And you consider these scenarios:
A man named Ismael, who is murderer.
Another man named Ismael, who is rapist.
Another man named Ismael, who is thug.
Therefore the name of anything does not really mean that the named entity should be what the name means.
It should be easy now.
The wrote:
Now if he says "I am Ismael of this country" it doesn't make sense. On the other hand, if he says "I am King of this country" it does make sense.
But the name Allah is not a title, rather a name, same with the name Ismael, it is not a title nor it describes what such entity is.
The wrote:
Let us go a step further and say that his name is Malik rather than Ismael. Again, if he says "I am Malik of this country," where Malik means King, then it makes sense. But if Malik does not mean King, and is a meaningless name or label, then "I am Malik of this country" is an equally meaningless sentence. The same goes when you say Allah is a Name or label with no meaning and apply it to 6:3.
The above is just pure rubbish
A name is a name
And a title is title
Please do not mix the two
The wrote:
You had said that your "strongest argument" is that AlIlah can refer to a man-made "god".
It seems you misunderstood that too, you are very confused indeed
I said that Allah as the God and Author of the Quran (not as a word) referred to other possible man made gods using the generic word Ilah
The wrote:
But only the disbelievers believe that there exists Ilah other than Allah. In essence, rather than following the erroneous concept of the disbelievers that there is an Ilah other than Allah and split hairs over it, we should listen to what the Quran says. I believe the Quran takes precedence, but you are trying to make an appeal to chirography, so we will look into that.
Whether Allah is a "combination" of Al and Ilah or not is the case you want to argue. Go ahead and talk about it, buddy.
holy crap, so if you know what my argument is exactly, why dont you answer it instead of wasting my time and yours? If you do not know the answer, it should be good for you to say I do not know
Status: Age: 111 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
Post subject:
@ Why you are debating me in the subject then?
To prove me wrong?
You were the one who misunderstood Ilah and started this thinking that you had something in there.
The Quran says that only Allah is "Ilah". If you find a verse where Allah has appointed an Ilah other than himself then present it. Else you are simply pussyfooting around by appealing to what disbelievers say. The disbelievers say "Allah is third of three". Imagine a disbeliever making it a "linguistic" pretext to contradict what the Quran clearly says.
@ If you are going to repeat the same ignorance that Allah (Arabic word) is the compositions of the two Arabic words (Al + Ilah), then I am asking you what happened to the first Alif in the word Ilah? Why it is omitted?
Stop being a pussyfooter. Get yourself educated on the matter and see what the opinion of Arab linguists is on the matter at hand.
Coming to the "missing alif" do you think this is the only known case? Can you present the calligraphy for lillah (li Allah)?
Posted:
Sun 21 Feb, 2010 6:34 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
The wrote:
@ Why you are debating me in the subject then?
To prove me wrong?
You were the one who misunderstood Ilah and started this thinking that you had something in there.
Good, now explain to me how I misunderstood the Arabic word Ilah? Thank you
The wrote:
The Quran says that only Allah is "Ilah".
The Quran says it in context, not as linguistic meaning, how confused you are man? Like any non Arabic speaker, nothing new really
The wrote:
If you find a verse where Allah has appointed an Ilah other than himself then present it.
But I a not interested in doing so, it proves nothing to me even if it exists, however you should know that I know well there is no such non sense you spewed above in the Quran
The wrote:
Else you are simply pussyfooting around by appealing to what disbelievers say. The disbelievers say "Allah is third of three". Imagine a disbeliever making it a "linguistic" pretext to contradict what the Quran clearly says.
Fuk the disbelievers bound to hell, it is your pals the free inders who also claim so, and all ignorant non Arabic speakers
guess what Pal, such crap in English that the first letter for god in god is G, to be God, DOES NOT EXIST IN Arabic
I really do not understand why knowledgeable Muslims like you are not concentrating on the message only while leaving the linguistic issues to those who speak and studied the language
The wrote:
@ If you are going to repeat the same ignorance that Allah (Arabic word) is the compositions of the two Arabic words (Al + Ilah), then I am asking you what happened to the first Alif in the word Ilah? Why it is omitted?
Stop being a pussyfooter. Get yourself educated on the matter and see what the opinion of Arab linguists is on the matter at hand.
What matter mister non Arabic speaker?
The matter that you know no Arabic at all
For you god and God is like Ilah and Allah
please dismiss yourself
The wrote:
Coming to the "missing alif" do you think this is the only known case? Can you present the calligraphy for lillah (li Allah)?
here we go, why dont you explain to us why Le removed the Alif from Allah
and while you spinning to find an answer, why dont you explain to us how come Ya Allah is valid while Ya (Al-Nidaa) (calling device) can never have a word with AL after it? _________________ http://free-islam.com
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You cannot download files in this forum
All times are GMT + 10 Hours Ported for PHP-Nuke by nukemods.com